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Defence For The Defensive Manager

Every comment on every fansite I've been on lately I've seen the same two words, and after nearly a year it's starting to get a bit tedious.

If you want to blame people for our current position, blame Martin O'Neill and Doug Ellis.


Because Randy Lerner showed faith and trust to give Martin O'Neill 150m (plus whatever for wages) and 5 years (til he left) to build foundations for success at the club, and that was thrown back in his face when he suggested O'Neill be more resourceful.

Why blame Ellis?

Because, thanks to Doug's whimsical attitude, we have bred a bunch of supporters who believe that one or two seasons is long enough to win something. This would usually be the case at other big clubs with managerial and financial stability transfer-wise, but thanks to O'Neill we lost both of those and McLeish is picking up the pieces.

Not his fault. He's still a young, fairly inexperienced Premier League manager and needs time. He's also at an established Premier League club now, not like his previous employers, so give him longer than 5 minutes to try and build something.

Aston Villa FC is about more than one or two bad seasons. David Moyes was touted for the job last summer but he said he wouldn't come to us because our fans are fickle. Moyes, who joined Everton from Preston North End, has been at Everton for 10 years and finished 15th in his first season. He's also finished 17th and 11th, as well as delivering European football 4 times and a top 4 finish once in that time, not to mention the recent FA Cup semi-finals.

The point is, unless an oil tycoon takes over, everyone outside of the top 4/5 is potentially mid-table. Everton are mid-table. Aston Villa are mid-table. This is the reality at present.

McLeish isn't going anywhere and will have his own team next season instead of a bunch of prima donna seniors who graft when they want to. Give him a break. We can't afford Chelsea-style transfer fees or wages for players and managers so see that we've punched above our weight for years and give him longer than one or two seasons to try and rebuild.

Sure things are disappointing right now, but the only way is up.

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The Journalist

Writer: mmlozza  Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Monday April 16 2012

Time: 9:39AM

Your Comments

I take your points, but are telling me with the squad he inherited and a near 20 million transfer budget we should be fighting relegation? Then he can`t even be honest, he lies to the media about his squad and down plays the club so it doesn`t look so bad on him. Its the way he is going about it that i hate.
Agree with all of that except the 'blaming Ellis' for our supporters' attitude. Doug kept us solvent, sold us to the right man, and only ever had the interests of the club at heart. Blaming Ellis is barking totally up the wrong tree.
I'm not blaming Ellis for his actions chrisj2812, I'm blaming him for the attitude he's passed on to many of our supporters. I agree with you when you say he did the right thing in the interests of the club, but the fickle nature has been something of a legacy. Randy Lerner has shown that he has more patience than Doug ever did, it's just a shame MON cared more about spending than building.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Give a man time who has proven, that given time andd resources, makes things much worse. You simply couldn't make it up.
His career stats also speak for themselves.
I agree with large parts. It has been a horrible season and going to Utd the weekend was sole destroying. I am at a loss of what is the right thing to do. At this moment I say give it another year with Alex but then that might change tomorrow, that how it seems to be with me at the moment. All I know is that, Lerner is a good owner, we are a great club and constant change is no good to anyone. I have renewed will travel away again next year etc and enjoy our days out but hope for a sense of optimism when travelling there rather than the horrible feeling we are getting at the moment.
Imagine McLeish was sacked today. Fast forward 10 years and how would we be judging him ? I
I blame the red hair brigade for our troubles. Why oh why did we not get Martin Jol? I cant abide this anti football anymore. When will the press wake up, I dont care where McLeish came from, its our style of play and the man management of our kids that worries me. I tweeted GG yesterday to show Scholes and Carrick what the future of Englands midfield looks like, I can only imagine McLeish telling him that he wouldnt get the ball all match cos he is up against a true great. Our psychology is all wrong and our approach to football matches is disgraceful. I love the fickle fans name we have, what else would you get when you have little to no success for 16 years???
Chelt Villan finish.....'I reckon we would be putting him down as one of the worst managers we've ever had...along With Venglos McNeill etc...oh yes !
voiceoftheholte, he hasn't been given any time. This is his first season at a real Premier League club and he's being judged on that alone. Small Heath have got nothing on us and he's still picking up the mess that MON created. I'm sure next season will be an improvement.
How anyone can defend him is beyond me.
For me it is the loss of any battle in the team that I will lay at McLeish's door. I'd love to blame Doug and understand the point re: sacking managers a lot etc but to be fair, at the end of his days, he did that less than during his 'peak'. I think at a certain point we have to move on from what he didn't do (and I do agree, he took our chance of modern day greatness, just as Alan Evans, Morley, Mortimer etc) BUT it is now 5 odd years on.

Whether McLeish can develop into a good manager or not, this is Villa, he isn't... he was never going to be accepted, it just was never going to be a fit, even sadder for those of us who wanted - like with all managers - to give him a chance.

I agree it has got boring, sadly it will get worse and worse if McLeish and Randy don't agree that this isnt' working and part company. I can't see that happening though. The PL record of his I put up on the front page the other day said it all for me. We also have just one win in 12. I laughed when the pen was scored yesterday and just posted in the forum 'let the floodgates open, all shots readily accepted'... The thing that worries me is I did laugh, the pain isn't there... that means I already expected a capitulation so why get down about it?

Feel sad and gutted right now.
The Fear
REALLY hope you are right re: next season being an improvement mmlozza the logic of it is in transition, he has to have a summer to spend, has to get rid of deadwood etc. That is the only thing I'm clinging on to. However, it is more to do with the fans total lack of faith in him, abuse and hatred towards him etc that suggests this just isn't and won't work. Not fair on him maybe... but then, the way he has ripped apart the spirit of the team (a team in the summer he told ME and a few others, he was excited to work with because it was so much better than what he'd had at Blues, said it was fully of quality etc etc... then recently he said he hasn't got the quality) blah blah blah! Still hoping you are right though, I really am mate. Also think it very brave to go against the majority with a view!
The Fear
lerneravfc - I don't think his stats are enough to judge him on at present. Like I said, he's still relatively new to the Premier League and needs time to either learn or burn, but right now he's just being hammered. MASON_PARKER - He would be put down as one of the worst managers we've had, but only because he hasn't had long enough time to improve his win rate. Chelt Villan - Martin Jol probably wanted to manage a London club after his experiences at Tottenham. I believe we have the fickle fans name because had a fickle chairman for a long time.
Fear, I know what you mean. This is the first season I can remember where I can actually turn the TV off if Villa are playing...they are boring, a draw seems to be a 'good result' and we have no players that display any flair. McLeish has had plenty of time, it's not working, it doesn't look like working, and as soon as we get this season over, let's get shut of him please !
ExpatVillaShirt - I'm defending him because the alternative is counter-productive to the already-negative morale we have, and because if he was given enough time things might change. I'm not saying they will, but they might, and that's all we can hope.
MASON_PARKER - He hasn't had ANY time! The only problem McLeish is having is that he hasn't had an immediate positive impact, which is what we've been used to with managerial changes. Houllier struggled as well and got hammered, then we finished in the top half and things didn't seem so bad. Like I said in my article, David Moyes has had some shocking seasons and struggled in his first at Everton, now he's considered a decent manager. Fear - I know exactly how you feel and what you're saying. We have to stay strong and believe that good times will come again, despite what seems to be overwhelmingly astounding facts and stats. Whatever happens in the summer, I'm sure there'll be improvements and maybe we can write about how Heskey's resurgence as a lethal predator at his new club Cardiff has been long overdue!
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ! Youve got to be a nose on the wind up surely !!??? JESUS CHRIST ! IM SPEECHLESS. So tell me this, your happy to trust our tactically inept manager with his OWN team when his idea of talent is Alan Hutton, Jermaine Jenas, Charles N'Zogbia and some average Aussie *****e called Brett Holman !! LMFAO ! No thanks. If this Aussie was any good why would he want to leave football for our ***** week in week out. If he was any good AZ would try to keep him. Eck is fecking useless. We have a squad that should be doing better, injuries aside. Its clear the players dont want to play for him. You sir are clearly on some awesome medication and my question to you is... can I have some !!??? You can only blame Ellis for not asking Lerner in depth questions about football as a whole because its clear to all of us bar yourself, that Lerner knows absolutely NOTHING and so does his board. McLeish OUT, Lerner OUT, Faulkner OUT !
my thought is this - from the start it was all negative - straight away - for whatever reason - bluenose, his record, etc...etc.. all the *****e being thrown around is bound to stick - on the players, supporters, staff, board, etc... and what does negativity breed? more negativity! and look where we are on the table.... i don't like most of the Mcleish decisions and how he acts- but this mess we are in goes deeper than him... Peter Grant for one is an absolute joke...
mmlozza.....what if you're wrong ? Are you prepared to take the chance, or should we cut our losses and try for someone better...? McLeish's record is poor wherever he's been....I can't see that changing here.
mmlozza I take on board your points! It's a fair article from another stand point written up. I does make a change to see written an article thought out whether people agree with you or not. I have got down myself and the total negativity which is getting worse. i backed off last November as it was creating negativity in me. Now I am like JF. I just except it. It doesn't hurt anymore like it did. I am resigned (yes there is a ironic pun in that) I just can't see Eck going anywhere so I have to pray your right
crosswesleyanchapel - Bloody hell, don't sugarcoat it mate, tell me how you REALLY feel! Hahaha. I'm not saying he's infallible and hasn't made mistakes this season, but the fact that he's probably not going anywhere means he deserves longer than one season to sort the mess out. It hasn't been entirely his own team, he's still dealing with the MON hangover of rock stars on high wages. N'Zogbia could still come good when he realises he's not the only player in the team, Jenas was doomed from the start but I agree with you that Hutton is no Mark Delaney. Maybe that will be addressed in the close season. Holman can't be judged, he hasn't even kicked a ball for us yet. Also, you could argue as to why any player leaves any team if they're any good? I promise you I'm not a nose in disguise, I wouldn't be trying to influence the perspective of every anti-McLeish supporter if I was! As for Lerner knowing nothing, was it a mistake giving MON the money for transfers and wages that he did when "the good times were rolling"? Or when he gave GH the money for Darren Bent to help us back up the table last season? This is my point, one bad season and everyone gets crucified! I just think it makes more sense to be united and positive rather than full of hate, that's all, along with the points I made reinforcing that statement!
leftfoot - Good point. MASON_PARKER - I may well be wrong, but as I said, we're about more than one season. Even if next season went the same as this one at least we'd know for sure that he wasn't the right man for us. Time has shown, however, that sometimes the longer a manager is at a club that things can improve. It just takes a degree of patience from everyone and time. kefkat - I totally understand. This season has been tough on all of us but to be honest , and this may seem weird, I feel even more proud to be an Aston Villa fan because of it. The fact that so much bad stuff is going on but I know I still love the club and believe that things will get better eventually. The only way is up, it has to be, and when we do improve it will be tremendous! That might seem like a weird concept, but it's working for me. Rather that than breed hate and limit myself to 2 words at a time saying the same thing every week.
Lol. Quality. The bloke has never shown any shoots of positivity. He has blatantly lied to the fans and press too many times. Once found out a liar, he'll always be untrusted!! You say that he's young. Do us a favour. You can't teach an old dog new tricks!!! Got to be a windup or fell into the Prozac cauldron Obelix style.
Villan444 - I used to love Asterix! I'd say he didn't expect the pressure of managing Aston Villa to be so astronomical so will say and do anything to try and get people off his back for 5 minutes. I'm not saying that's the right decision, but maybe a POV he's had. He is still young in terms of being a Premier League manager. Let's face it, keeping Blues in the Premier League is like trying to hold a tonne in one hand while vacuuming with the other: it's always gonna go down eventually. Like I said to Fear, one way or another things will surely improve next season.
Finishing 3rd in the Scottish Premier League says it all for me. Even with a 10 point deduction Rangers will finish 2nd this year . End of
AstonBilla - MON finished 1st and 2nd several times in the SPL with Celtic and still only managed to get us to the top half of mid-table in the Premier League. Hardly groundbreaking stuff.
I knew it would be Martin O'Neill's fault. He left nearly two seasons ago. Time to move on and see the world as it is and not as you would like it to be.

You blithely tell us what transpired between Lerner and O'Neill but the truth is you don't know what happened. Nor do I. Nor do any of us.

Good to see that O'Neill's lack of ability is showing so strongly at Sunderland. Oh.... Hang on a minute .... Course he's got all his own players in now, hasn't he? Oh ... Hang on a minute ...

When you put forward arguments that include figures it helps if the figures you use are close to correct. Martin O'Neill spent in the region of 120m and recouped some 38m, leaving a net spend of 82m, not the 150m you are bandying about. So far as wages are concerned you know as much about them as I do. In other words - nothing.

As someone else so famously said about O'Dreary. 'We're not fickle. We just don't like you.' The same applies to McLeish. A failure at every club he has ever managed. Give him one more season and watch him take us into the second division

chocolate teapot
I've always thought of us as a team that finishes 7th ( 50 +years a fan) & with the occasional cup run (win !) I've been happy with that as long as we've played a decent style of football . MON was many things but he'll live in my memory for the incredible win at Everton & for the prospect of winning the league (OK we didn't do it but so what !) . This season after the first twelve games I was faced with the prospect of spending 50 + every home game or painting my house & watching the paint dry. I chose the house & made the right decision
mmlozza - I agree with you. Yes a 4 -0 loss yesterday hurt, especially after the first 'goal' shambles. And yes I agree with those who say he has made some mistakes. Making Gabby captain is another. But constant change will get us nowehere. Three full time managers in 3 years is part of the problem we have now. McLeish will, I am am certain, be given another season at least to show what he can do. Next year there will be no excuses, it will be his team. Whatever he manages to do, some positive support will help him and that is why I will continue to give him my support.
chocolate teapot - Love the attitude! You're right, I don't know what happened and I don't know the exact figures. No-one said he lacked ability, but even with a net spend of 82m (is that the exact figure or just something you're bandying about?) he couldn't get us into the top 4, something he was expected to do. With regard to his progress at Sunderland, yes, they're playing well and getting results but there's still plenty of time for him to mess it all up. How long's he been there? And how long was he with us? And allegedly, which is the bigger club? Please come back with a response, I like your style!
Just think that we're stagnating mmlozza if not going backwards. If he has any money to spend it will be wasted on journeymen or Scotsmen who will back him up in the dressing room to prolong his stay with us. That's why Hutton was brought in, GH had Pires, MON had a few from Celtic. Difference is the Scots are very poor at the moment and beware of what Strachan did at Boro. He isn't going to suddenly change into a master tactician overnight and he wont change his negative outlook on football or his defensive ways. If you want below average, bottom third of the prem ( regardless of how much transfer money is spent) support him at your peril. You're in the vast minority.
There better be a bloody improvement next year! Things can't get any worse when we are going to end up with our lowest points total in the prem ever! If they do get worse that established premiership club will be a championship club. I don't think he's the right man and he never will be in most supporters eyes. He's not exactly young, at 53 he isn't suddenly going to change his style of play. I don't blame him for coming, any manager would have bitten randys arm off after being relegated with small heath. I blame randy and Faulkner (i assume it was there decision) we should have grabbed Martin Jol straight away but we faffed about and let fulham have him. I just don't understand why he was appointed, I can't think of a single reason. I don't like all this changing managers business but if the board had made the correct choice when mon left we would have at least had some stability. We shouldn't be fighting relegation 2 seasons on the trot!
Lion Heart
Villan444 - I know it seems bad but we can only hope that things get better next season, or the year after. It might not be an overnight change but there might be some changes next season, I'm just saying it can't hurt to try and keep some stability for a bit after last time round. If not then I'm sure RL would ring the changes again. Bottom third and below average or top 5 and high quality, if it's Aston Villa doing it I support them, minority or otherwise.
mmlozza with all due respect you can ***** off mate, I don't need you telling me to support a proven failure that has well proven that he is a failure, he slags the fans off, blames the players, lies his little rat face off 24/7, comes out with constant PR bull ***** and you expect me to get behind him? A man who promised this "beautiful attacking football" all but to revert to 10 men behind the ball in our own half every god damn game. WHY should I give the clown any more time to get things wrong. Wake up mate.
Green Villan
Green Villan - That's a bit strong! My argument is that he spent the last 3 years at a dump that can't stay in the Premier League long enough to be called a Premier League team. He's come to a bigger club and probably is out of his depth at the minute, that will either change or it won't, but I don't see any point in slating him when he's probably gonna be here next year as well. If things don't improve and he gets the sack, I will gladly take it all back and admit you are right.
"I don't think his stats are enough to judge him on at present." They are though, we can`t judge him on an imaginary successful future that hasn`t happened yet, we can only judge him on what he has done.
mmlozza, I respect the bravery you've shown choosing that side of the fence to sit on - must be pretty lonely over there! But seriously, McLeish has had plenty of time to show that he can at least provide the fans with hope. Hope that he has the ability to play players to their strengths, to motivate them, to identify weaknesses in the opposition and set our team up to exploit them. Can you honestly say he's done any of that?? Our in-form player, Weimann, was a left winger yesterday for God's sake! His mentoring of the younger players has been appalling as well; blaming young players left right and centre for giving up goals, not scoring a hattrick in stoppage time..... How motivated would you be if your manager said to you "meh, i never expected you to beat that lot anyway" like he did after the Arsenal game? And can you honestly tell me you've enjoyed anything on display at VP this season? He's got the worst home record in many many years of Villa's proud history, yet he certainly hasn't got the wrost squad we've had in years. And as for his record; he had plenty of time at Birmingham, with a team that won the league cup, yet still nosedived them into the championship. He finished 3rd in a 2 horse race in Scotland as well! How is that even possible?!?! i'm sorry, fair play for voicing your opinion and whilst I would never say your opinion is wrong or any less valid than anyone else's, the fact that the vast, vast majority of fans are fed up with him his style and his media soundbites surely means for the good of the club; both in terms of it's support and the money through the gates, it's time for him to make like a banana...
Very strong green villan to be fair I'd have deleted it if mmlozza hadn't already seen it. We can all have different opinions and debate without telling others to f off!

For me, as some will know as some of us got slated for it (!!!!) once appointed (I did say all through thesummer this wouldn't happen, madness, mission impossible etc, just could not believe this would happen!) that we had to give him a chance. I understand the logic that with his own players and time etc... but this one just does not fit, right or wrong, fans largely hate him, have hated the football put in front of us and he should go. I don't think he will. I think he should, I think he should save himself from the embarrassment and horrible thing of facing the abuse, facing protests etc. I don't know why but on a human level I feel sorry for managers taking that flack, they aren't being crap on purpose afterall... But evidence on the pitch this season, and I still say we have some decent players albeit we have some who need a might kick up their arses and a few who I did warn him (oooh, ark at her!) in the summer were just mercenaries. All in all, for whatever reason, he looks out of his depth, grapping for excuses and did similar to Blues (even when taking down a second time, he took no blame at all). It would be more healthy if he and the board just agreed on a shake of the hands and 'oh well, it was worth a try' and we all move on and try to repair the ill feeling some of you so obviously now have towards the Club.

If he is here next season, I'll try to give a few months again and hope the likes of mmlozza and dominic are right, with time he'll be good. For me we have enough internationals etc. As Dwight Yorke said yesterday, there is no way the likes of Norwich and Swansea should be above. Hey ho. Admiral defence of the article and points being made mate, really mean that!
The Fear
mmlozza - if you're in the employ of the club, take note. Here's a few sensible reasons that no villa fan want's this Eckscuse for a manager. 1) failure in scotland by getting rangers to finish 3rd out of 2 clubs. 2) Failure at blues by getting them relegated. 3) another failure at blues getting them relegated a 2nd time. 3) failure at villa by playing the most mind-numbing boring drivel we've even been subjected to. 4) another failure at villa by 'leading' the team to its longest even home premier league winless streak. 5) another failure at villa by telling lies to supporter groups before starting such as 'I wont lpay gabby on the wing' or 'i'm going to play attacking free-flowing football'. 6) another failue by dumping us out of both cups unceremoniously 7) another fail by actually setting the team up to fail before a ball is kicked. ALSO i suspect that this season MAY see another 2 records broken with our lowest-ever points total, and lowest-even goals-for total - can anyone confirm? Fans are being turned off left, right & centre... respected names in the media are slating what's happening - all of this and you're asking us to stick with him??? You suggest that 'he might turn it around next season' - exactly what part of his history suggest's he'll even do more than low-mid table? Roll on 6th May - mcleishout day!
mmlozza- Disagree with you, but as The Fear noted, it's a brave and good thing to go against the prevailing orthodoxy sometimes. You've at least tried to use intelligent arguments to make your case. Well done! A few things you might like to consider, though. AVFC are no more or less a 'real' EPL club than anyone else. Any club in the EPL is an EPL club (including Small Heath when they were in it). Also, Villa might be a 'big' club but they aren't -- currently -- a successful one. Leeds, Forest even RedScouse show that no club has a right to success. Villa are no different. Only the abysmal form of the clubs below Villa have saved the club -- probably -- from relegation this season. Next season the club might not be so lucky. Can you imagine Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle or a host of other 'big' clubs appointing McLeish or any manager who'd just relegated their local rivals? That Randy lerner did just that is an indication that it probably isn't just AM who is out of his depth.
Ian Ladyman has written some damning words about the current situation and mentality at Villa. He echoes voth's comments yesterday that the side capitulated even before a ball was kicked. There is a famous saying in German football; 'Before the game is after the game'. Quite.
Out of order to blame Doug for the current mess we are in. What you need to remember is that we (as fans) are individuals and I can safely say that I am not a certain "breed" of fan that believes one or two seasons is long enough to win something. We all have our own opinions and outlooks on things, there is no set mentality that comes with being a villa fan. Doug wasn't the best but the one thing he did was leave us in an incredibly healthy state for his successors to build on. No debt, great facilities, state of the art training complex and the most popular managerial appointment in over 20 years. What randy did next was nothing to do with Doug. I agree with you that one season isn't enough time for a manger which is why I was gutted when Houllier left. I genuinely thought he was at the start of creating a new style of football for villa. And had he got another season we would have got rid of all the rubbish players nobody wants at the club right now. So Warnock, Dunne, Gabby, would all be gone...not Hutton too. Houllier was also buying good players, I think if Makoun had more time to settle in the premier league he would be bossing it for us right now. But Mcleish simply isn't the man for us, his philosophy and tactics are just plain wrong. When you argue about it being his first real season as a premier league manager just look at Brendan Rogers and Paul Lambert. This is a first for them too and they have the guts and tactical know how to not only survive but play nice football.
I was at OT yesterday and I went with virtually no hope of us getting anything out of the game. I'd say the majority of Villa fans there felt the same. I don't mind losing to a much better team on the day, but not to give it a go and make tackles or chase the ball is inexcusable, especially considering our current position in the table. There was virtually no closing down, no pressing of their defenders when they were in possession, and no challenges until they were in our box. And then when we had the ball there was absolutely NO movement by any of our midfielders or front men. You dont need to be Pep or Jose to spot that and put it right. It's surely the first thing you learn at coaching school. And yet it went on throughout the game, and in fact that has been the way we've played for most of this season (bar the Arsenal game at home). I know some will say that it's up to the players to self motivate, but it's McLeish's job to spot it and change the side so that players dont get complacent. If McLeish can't motivate the players to run around after the ball, or to tackle, or to close players down, then he deserves all the negative criticism he's getting and in my view is not capable of managing our club. My other worry is what McLeish is doing to our young players. If I were Gary Gardner or Chris Herd, I'd be seriously wondering if Villa is the place to be to further my career at the moment.
Your sentiment is good mmlozza but you'll never convince me that Eck is the right man. Whoever turns up next has got to be the right(ish) sort of man and has got to be given time to build, learn and make a few mistakes but NO to Eck!!
23% win ratio mmlozza. Thats what matters. Nothing to do with managing the *****e up the road. Just the fact that he is, simply put.... a VERY ***** manager.
mmlozza To be truthfull before Mcleish was appointed I forecast a finish for Villa of about 17th unless large a amount of money was spent. My reasoning the younger players were not ready for the premiership as a group (maybe one or two I reasoned were like Clark and Albrighton) and some of the older squad members were past their best e.g. Heskey Dunne and needed moving on. Yes I was willing to give Mcleish every chance even now I am sure he is a decent hard working guy and bear him no personal malice but feel a combination of inheriting a squad that for the most part was light on creative players spending the money made available on the wrong players - Hutton & Nzobia I consider Given an excellent signing and a lack of man management to get the best out of the remaining squad, at times terrible tactics have resulted in the poor and at times dire football we have been forced to endure. Is it all down to Mcleish ? probably not would we have seen better football if we had retained the glory hunters ? possibly. The truth is and here I leave myself open to flak that this mess should be laid at the door of our Board. They state Mr Lerner took advice from sources before appoitments were made (Houllier & Mcleish) in that case Mr Lerner sack your advisors their knowledge of football is probably worth less your own gut instinct. Any Villa manager that can only win ONE home game between November the 5th and April the 5th would normally have been sacked by now due to the poor performce of other teams we are still in the premiership but unless some action is taken in the close season re a new manager & players I doubt we will survive another season so I am in agreement with VOTH and others this is not going to work we do not have the money to fund another managers OWN choices and it has already be shown that he cannot succeed with the present squad.
It was C P Snow who said, 'Comment is free but facts are sacred.' mmlozza - you and I disagree and that's fine.

Perhaps you should use the quote from Lord Salisbury, 'Why do we need change? Aren't things bad enough as they are?

My facts come from the net but I think they are pretty accurate.

I do not think I can ever come to respect McLeish because of his failure to accept responsibility when things go wrong. He would be happy to take the praise if we were doing well. 'Success has many parents but failure is always an orphan.'

When it comes to judging our managers I look at what they have done, both with us and previously. That's why I judge O'Neill a success and Mcleish a failure. I don't try to second guess what might have happened had circumstances been different. Nor do I use my crystal ball to look into the future. In any other job McLeish would have been sacked long since. I see absolutely nothing to suggest that things will be different in the future. This morning's on-line Guardian summed up this season perfectly. 'Aston Villa are a sad sight these days tired, directionless, timid, miserably shambling through another season of nothingness.' How you can suggest putting up with this for another year I do not know.

chocolate teapot
Well said Chocolate . To add when a man is tired of Football (London) he's tired of life. Another year like this & !!!
Where the ***** did Moyes ever say our fans are fickle? Writing ********* is one thing, making ********* up is another...and that article is *********.
Just because he has a different opinion doesn't make the article whatever it is you ****** said. Blimey!
The Fear
oh but if anyone thinks it is just us who are fickle, they should read some of the Spurs fans opinions over the last few days 'cant' wait for the season to be over' etc... I'd swap seasons! lol
The Fear
It was apparent that we had no plan B when the first goal went in. In fact I would be bold enough to say we went on the pitch with no plan A. We constantly GAVE the ball to them (not just lost it in tackles GAVE) and invited them to attack. There is no way any defence can last out that long until the floodgates open. It wasn't a penalty in any shape or form but its not like we lost 1-0... I have tried to give the fella time but its apparent he has NO tactics and NO motivational skills. Caruthers looked decent is the only highlight of yesterday.
Fair play mmlozza, I respect the balls you are showing in giving an opinion you know the vast majority will disagree with, so fair play to you. The reason I can't get behind him is when I used to see his blues team play when I was in a pub etc I used to cringe at how horrible they were on the eye, listen to my bl nose mates say how depressing they were to watch for the season ticket holders etc. We are now in exactly the same situation except our fans aren't willing to trade off survival for *****e football. Never will. He has us playing exactly the same as his previous team. EXACTLY the same. It is his way. It is the only way he knows how to operate. Results may change slightly for the better, just might, but I guarantee his cautious and cowardly philosop0hy will not. This ugly duckling will definately not turn into a swan. Like my dad used to say, if it smells like *****, looks like ***** and steams like ***** then there is a good chance it is *****.
My apologies mmloza it wasn't a personal attack on you it was more a frustration at the situation, I appreciate your opinion and didn't want it to come across as a bit harsh to you but I just can't support a manager who constantly lies and insults the fans, Randy has a tiny little pinch of my support at the moment and believe me that is not much at all, if Randy keeps McLeish or brings in another clown and get things wrong I'd be protesting for Randy to knaff off. The bottom line is this McLeish is out of his depth and shows no sign of improvement and if he stays we will be forever backwards and never upwards, we bring in a manger that knows how to attack and defend the we will move onwards and upwards. Jebus H Chrimity I'm not asking to win the league with out loosing or drawing a game I just want entertainment, not just knock it around the back when we are loosing.
Green Villan
Mcleish is *****, end of story.
I had to get ready for work this afternoon so couldn't carry on with the debate......... Looking at all of these comments shows me how much we all love the Villa and hate the current situation we're in. Let's hope that the future is still bright and gets brighter, one way or another. Massive respect to all of you on here today. Chocolate teapot, Green Villan, lerneravfc and everyone else, thanks to all of you for your points and views, you are all legends and despite what you may think of me for writing this piece, I love you all in my own special way! UTV PS: Additional massive respect to The Fear for running the article, stepping up and riding the rollercoaster with us! Legend.
mmlozza, don't give up the day job mate haha.Look at his stats,its McNeil all over again, basically the same. If this clown just about keeps us up and i doubt he can(it will be the teams round us that do)he will be useless next season.If he is here next season i will have to give him a chance but it will last a couple of months to show us he will not play negative football he always servers up,he can take the lead then not sit back on it and setting us out not to lose a game,this is not the Villa way,never has and should never play that way. We paid his staff off and gave him 2 mill a year to serve this rubbish up. Look at the other managers on budgets,Swansea,Norwich etc.Look at their their players to what we have, don't even go their about injuries,we should have been safe before this.The guy is a Premiership loser,twice over,he doesn't fit at Villa and never will,waste of space. Specs-savers are doing a good deal on,think you had better pop in lol.
mmlozza, I don't think any ill of you, think you have a valid point just as most on here, it's just a tad depressing for all of late but fair play for the input and your optimism. All the best mate and UTV.
Green Villan
I was up for giving Alex a chance, and to be honest I still would if we were 15th but playing games to win - playing games with some guts, playing games and, even if we lose, trying our damndest.......but its soooo hard to defend someone who parks the bus across the penalty area....actually no, a bus would stop the ball, what we have is a mini metro He is here for the duration, and if we get relegated ( and with Wigan just leapfrogging us I am getting really twitchy) he will still be our manager next year - in fact, he will be MORE secure if we go down as he is actually a capable championship boss
probably nothing to get excited about but Paddy Power have Alex as 3/1 fav to be next manager to go
He is unable to motivate many of the players. The lack of fight and drive has been there for all to see which is unforgivable at this level. It simply cannot continue this way. Something has to give.
There are none so blind as those that will not see. I guess all of us who are unhappy with McLeish's Villa must have been watching different games to those who think he deserves one more second at our club. Face it, we've been dire this season, with little to cheer about except some promising performances from the youngsters and victory over Chelsea which was a good one. Other than that, not much to be positive about really. I respect your point of view and your right to have one, but I don't agree with it because I genuinely believe that the longer McLeish stays at Villa, the worse we will get. The cold hard facts of our performances and league position agree with me.
mmlozza, I LOVE your optimism. It's very refreshing, and there are some points to your argument that I agree with. But two things that trouble me. 1. you say "Everton are mid-table. Aston Villa are mid-table. This is the reality at present." - I'd KILL for mid-table at the moment but in reality we are in a relegation battle and in serious trouble. 2. You say he should be given a break as he is an inexperienced manager. That may be so, but why oh why do we even have an inexperienced manager in charge!? Who thought that was a good idea!? Ok so I have delusions of grandeur (I coined that phrase) but I expect better from Aston Villa. The bottom line is there is A LOT about Aston Villa that needs to change at the moment and most of it comes back to the manager.
I'm sorry, but I've read all the opinions on this thread...and the more I read, the more I think McLeish has to go, but not until the end of the season (Look what happened to Wolves with a premature sacking). With Wigan winning again last night...I'm not sure we will even be in the premier league next season...I can't see us picking up another point. We as Villa fans seem to be able to resign ourselves to second best....if Man Utd had replaced Fergie with McLeish and this was the style of play, he would be out on his arse before you could say 'Young's a diver'. I have seen no improvement whatsoever this season, in fact, we look worse than ever at the moment. Weimann looks a great prospect, but McLeish is already seemingly busying himself knocking any flair out of him. I'm fed up with this Villa style of play, it's boring, it's rubbish, it's tactically inept, it's nervous, it's mind numbingly average at it's very best. Nope, I've seen enough...the longer we keep McLeish the worse we're going to get. Booooo to you Lerner.
This is the funniest thread ever. mmlozza (aka Paul Faulkner) you have made me spill my morning cuppa with laughter. As I understand it you want to give the bloke who has a couple of Premier league relegations under his belt, more time? You want to give the manager who constantly belittles our youth, more time? You want to give a manager with one of the worst goals scored in the last 7 years, more time? You want to give a manager who thought Darren Bent was a target man and thrived on long balls, more time? You are so happy that things are getting better that you want to give him more time? Whilst it is obvious that the club can never, ever be united with him in charge, you still want to endure it for another season? At Rangers he built a team over 4 years that went on the longest winless run in their history (10 games) and finished up third in the annual two horse race and you want to give a man with that record more time at our great club? Rangers fans eventaully gave up and ran him out of town. That tells you everything. I am pleased that he has won a couple of cups, that is nice for him, but managers are judged by what they do in the League and his record is one of total failure. He will never ever be excepted by Villa fans. And your support of a failure has made me even more determined to protest against the biggest managerial mistake in Villa history. I will set you a challenge for Saturday if you are prepared to take it on. Bring along a banner in support of mcMuppet and I will bring one demanding he leaves. Lets see which one is more appreciated by fans who are actually paying to watch the dross currently on offer? I have been to games where almost every fan has been calling for him to be sacked. Not once have I heard anyone singing his name. Are you saying that all the fans are wrong?
I was ready to leave this post alone on a positive note but it looks like I'm back in thanks to VOTH......with regard to your challenge, you might as well offer me 1million to race you in a 100m sprint when you're starting at the 90m mark! I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right, and with this article I accept that I am in an extremely vast minority. My thinking was that taking a different perspective would stop me from being full of hate for the current situation, the manager and the way the team plays. Answer me this, honestly: What are you getting out of it? Don't get me wrong, I know why you and everyone else feels the way they do, but what has calling for him to be sacked achieved? Has any of it made a difference to the fact that he's in charge and probably will be next year as well? What will you do if he IS in charge again next year? You can say that the thread is funny, it probably is to most, I don't mind. It's my opinion, you have yours and I respect yours. We're here for the same reason so it's fine, but think of my stance and defence of McLeish as one of consolidative resignation (no pun intended) rather than one of staunch die-hard love for the man!
People train to improve their performance. McMuppet is paid 2m a year to train our good squad of players to an acceptable level. Sometimes a bit of luck can go against you, but when a pattern emerges you can link this directly back to the training. We have conceded 21 goals from set pieces. We have scored none. That isn't coincidence, it is as a direct result of the training methods of our manager and his coaching team. I provide training for my sales team. If they fail to sell, because I have trained them incorrectly then I would be sacked, without any compensation. McMuppet has failed to train our team to an acceptable standard and for the simple facts of 21 - 0 should be sacked immediately. There is absolutly no defence of this absolute shambles. As for what I get from protesting, I am now actually enjoying it. I will be at Bodymoor Heath tomorrow morning with a lovely message in black and white for McMuppet to see as he drives in to train our players on how not to score. UTV. McMuppet Out Immediately.
I totally agree managers need time and the modern fan expects to much too soon. A club like ours I'd say you need a 3 to 5 year plan but the clear and obvious fact is McLeish is not the man to do it. Eck out
There may be no defence of it VOTH, but there's no point in attacking it either. Despite the protests, the uproar, the articles, the hatred, he's still the manager. Maybe the message should have been "resign, McLeish" instead of "sack McLeish", because the only person in charge of whether he stays on next season seems to be McLeish himself. Randy hasn't listened, Paul Faulkner and the custard-slingers haven't listened. McLeish might. Has anyone protested for him to resign instead of being sacked?
lozza. Thank you for joining the McMuppet Out brigade. welcome to the protest. You may well have a good idea there. You bring along the 'please resign' banners and I will take along my 'get the f'eck out of Villa' one and we will get him out one way ot t'other.

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