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HOGWASH Report - Randy WILL Back O'Neill

OK, this always happens when Villa start doing well, some doom merchant comes along and implies there is trouble at t'mill or that the manager is on the war path.

I didn't do anything on this article yesterday because unlike the paper it was in, I wanted to get my facts straight first.

Tom Evans? Never heard of him, asked someone else at People also and I am not sure they have either. Hmmm, must be 'close' to the club though surely, I mean, he has a 'source' for this back page article. Well, I'm not sure anyone at Villa have heard of him either.

Well, according to this Tom Thumb, sorry, Tom Evans, MON is chasing Randy Lerner for cash and Randy has said the cupboard is bear and that MON would have to make do with youth players and loan dealings.

Hog wash was my initial reaction and having spoken to a few people today - hey, I could say 'sources' to spice things up if you wish... hogwash is still the reaction.

Think about it, we are developing, we are pushing the top five, we are at Wembley, we will get good tv money, there is the Sky deal cash, there will be placement money and we have no debts to service unlike Liverpool and Manchester United who are fighting huge interest bills each year.

So would you - if you were the owner - say no money in the summer just to see all your and your managers hard work count for nothing?

Randy was never going to do an Abramovich, we all knew that from the start and from memory most of us (have to be careful, can't be seen to be speaking for everyone!!!) seemed very happy with that. Man City have come along to ruin the league a little more, Randy on the other hand hasn't refused his manager backing but has done it right and has put no debt on Villa but has ploughed in a small fortune to bring in the players AND improve the infrastructure (some say that is cosmetic, in my ever so humble opinion they are wrong. Bodymoor is now up there with any club in the world for training facilities and Villa Park was seriously in need of the investment he has put in but that has not stopped Villa being amongst the biggest spenders in Europe over the last two summers. Last season, we were second only to Citeh in spending.

Ok, people point to the January transfer window and no action but they don't seem to be looking at the total lack of real movement throughout the Premiership during that transfer window.

Clubs - I hope - will have to start cutting their cloth a bit more appropriately anyway, look at the hell the Portsmouth fans are being dragged through at the moment. Look at the protests at Manchester United and Liverpool over their owners? We have stability, no debt, a solid chairman not trying to be Mr Aston Villa and real progress on the pitch.

Not the worst situation in the world is it?

There will be spending in the summer. Hopefully a bit of sense will have to come to the transfer market and maybe that will also give the youth players a chance at clubs. Man City will be the exception to the rule and there is nothing any well run club can really do about that apart from keep doing the right things and hope that obscene spending amounts to no success at all (sorry City fans, nothing personal, much like Villans, you have for so long been the 'nearly' team and so I'm sure you'll enjoy the ride in some ways but much like many 'real' Chelsea fans, it will wear slightly thin as it will no longer be 'your' club, just a rich man's play thing!)

So what did the 'Villa source' say in the report yesterday? 'The club is in cutback mode. It is a squeeze at all levels. The top scouts have been told that their targets have to be cheap and 'sensible' - and the word has come from the top.'

I'll play top trumps with sources, no word of any sort has come from the top, sorry but that report is total hogwash. Still, filled a gap in the paper and gave everyone something to talk about eh!?

Was interesting on the Sky Sports Sunday Supplement how the journo's reacted to the story, they doubted it also and said it needed more flesh on the bones to back it up. There is no flesh to add and very little bones either.

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Writer: J P Fear Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Monday February 22 2010

Time: 12:03PM

Your Comments

too many misguided fools or wannabe journalists out there who dream up stories that are totally worthless.
leelindsay
too many misguided fools or wannabe journalists out there who dream up stories that are totally worthless.
leelindsay
Agree Mr Fear. I think the media like stirring storms in teacups as it's what they're paid to do. I think you're right to highlight what a fantastic position we're in. It seems most people outside the club can see it, but frequently our fellow supporters are unable. Is it our more youthful, impatient generation that feels that way more?
johnnyuk
Agree Mr Fear. I think the media like stirring storms in teacups as it's what they're paid to do. I think you're right to highlight what a fantastic position we're in. It seems most people outside the club can see it, but frequently our fellow supporters are unable. Is it our more youthful, impatient generation that feels that way more?
johnnyuk
The United propaganda machine sparking into action ahead of a tough cup final against Villa I think.
Stig
The United propaganda machine sparking into action ahead of a tough cup final against Villa I think.
Stig
Who believes anything written in the press these days? 70% fabricated, 30% guesswork..
hazza01
Who believes anything written in the press these days? 70% fabricated, 30% guesswork..
hazza01
I expect there will be more scandal in the press on Sunday morning...there always is on the day of a cup final, remember the suits story when we played United before!! The club also do so much off the pitch now days that it would be difficult to see how money is tight and that spending on the team has to stop. I have seen evidence that money will continue to be spent on the club. It was only 3 months back we had to drop out from hosting the Olympics as the ground may not have been finished in time for the games to take place...hardly the actions of a club not intending to spend money.
whvilla
I expect there will be more scandal in the press on Sunday morning...there always is on the day of a cup final, remember the suits story when we played United before!! The club also do so much off the pitch now days that it would be difficult to see how money is tight and that spending on the team has to stop. I have seen evidence that money will continue to be spent on the club. It was only 3 months back we had to drop out from hosting the Olympics as the ground may not have been finished in time for the games to take place...hardly the actions of a club not intending to spend money.
whvilla
you talking about me or the People reporter though Lee! lol
The Fear
you talking about me or the People reporter though Lee! lol
The Fear
Good article Fear. I'm in total agreement about the way RL has financed the club and wholeheartedly support him for it. I would hate to see Aston Villa fall into the rut that the likes of M Utd and LFC have to endure. One thing i always admired Deadly Doug for was his steadfast refusal to place Villa in the Red!
Charizma
Good article Fear. I'm in total agreement about the way RL has financed the club and wholeheartedly support him for it. I would hate to see Aston Villa fall into the rut that the likes of M Utd and LFC have to endure. One thing i always admired Deadly Doug for was his steadfast refusal to place Villa in the Red!
Charizma
god damn United fans puttin rubbish in paper just to upset the good morale within our club unlike theirs. We shud fabricate a story for next sunday to miff them. How bout 'Randy ready for Roo' Villa chairman has handed O'Neill 80mill to prise Uniteds talisman away and complete his Villa puzzle
av-jc-86
god damn United fans puttin rubbish in paper just to upset the good morale within our club unlike theirs. We shud fabricate a story for next sunday to miff them. How bout 'Randy ready for Roo' Villa chairman has handed O'Neill 80mill to prise Uniteds talisman away and complete his Villa puzzle
av-jc-86
To the Press; You turn if you want to. This Lerner is not for turning!
Stig
To the Press; You turn if you want to. This Lerner is not for turning!
Stig
Good stuff Fear - Media BS is the bane of my life, thankfully there's blogs to put the record straight. With that said, if it is true that Aston Villa are a loss making business, and that Randy Lerner puts money in but only on an interest rate well above market rates? Is that sustainable? Honest question, I may be wrong on this, just something I read.
Gunnerman
Good stuff Fear - Media BS is the bane of my life, thankfully there's blogs to put the record straight. With that said, if it is true that Aston Villa are a loss making business, and that Randy Lerner puts money in but only on an interest rate well above market rates? Is that sustainable? Honest question, I may be wrong on this, just something I read.
Gunnerman
I suggest on sunday at Wembley, we all flip 'em out, (if you have one) and wave our 'Old Man's' in the air in show of support for Webcam! That'd get Sky somewhat worried!!! Proper solidarity at the Villa!!! Tom Evans, go back to play-school.
ljkal
I suggest on sunday at Wembley, we all flip 'em out, (if you have one) and wave our 'Old Man's' in the air in show of support for Webcam! That'd get Sky somewhat worried!!! Proper solidarity at the Villa!!! Tom Evans, go back to play-school.
ljkal
Simply put I am a happy Villa fan for the first time in years and years. O'Neil does strange things sometimes but that gives us something to talk about, he is however a top manager being led by a truely great businessman and board - Long live the Villa revolution.
davidsands1982
Simply put I am a happy Villa fan for the first time in years and years. O'Neil does strange things sometimes but that gives us something to talk about, he is however a top manager being led by a truely great businessman and board - Long live the Villa revolution.
davidsands1982
Gunnerdude - at BELOW market rates. Loans at 2% at the last annual report. Nothing like the £80M+ that the Glazers have taken out of Man U for 'consultantcy' purposes.
ljkal
Gunnerdude - at BELOW market rates. Loans at 2% at the last annual report. Nothing like the £80M+ that the Glazers have taken out of Man U for 'consultantcy' purposes.
ljkal
If the double A-Ron is reading this, told ya so!! :-p
young_jonah
If the double A-Ron is reading this, told ya so!! :-p
young_jonah
@Ljkal - cheers bud, that's fair enough! I've started getting interested in football finance specifically due to Uefa's financial fair play regulations that are due to come in to force when they get signed off. It's gonna be a massive shock to some clubs - just thought that might be a reason why any potential lack of investment is being reported.
Gunnerman
@Ljkal - cheers bud, that's fair enough! I've started getting interested in football finance specifically due to Uefa's financial fair play regulations that are due to come in to force when they get signed off. It's gonna be a massive shock to some clubs - just thought that might be a reason why any potential lack of investment is being reported.
Gunnerman
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/2010/02/which-clubs-in-the-epl-are-going-to-survive-the-next-four-years/ in case anyone is wondering where I got my information from :-) cheers gents - you can still grab 4th, but will take an awful lot to dislodge the teams above you.
Gunnerman
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/2010/02/which-clubs-in-the-epl-are-going-to-survive-the-next-four-years/ in case anyone is wondering where I got my information from :-) cheers gents - you can still grab 4th, but will take an awful lot to dislodge the teams above you.
Gunnerman
Gunnerman - that article is laughable. He obviously knows nothing about what is happening at Villa, and more importantly how commercial finance works (something you seem to share with him). The fact that the report is written by Gooner should have given you a clue. And our Youth Policy 10 years behind Arsenal? Give me strength!!!!! All in all - what a *****.
heathfieldroad1874
Gunnerman - that article is laughable. He obviously knows nothing about what is happening at Villa, and more importantly how commercial finance works (something you seem to share with him). The fact that the report is written by Gooner should have given you a clue. And our Youth Policy 10 years behind Arsenal? Give me strength!!!!! All in all - what a *****.
heathfieldroad1874
ljkal, did u mean what i think u mean? :)
Tr1dent
ljkal, did u mean what i think u mean? :)
Tr1dent
Heathfield - easy chap, it's not the only source I use, methinks you protest too much. I came here with an honest question and provided a source, no need to get narky.
Gunnerman
Heathfield - easy chap, it's not the only source I use, methinks you protest too much. I came here with an honest question and provided a source, no need to get narky.
Gunnerman
And if you want to counter, post a link to back up your claims and I'll happily read it an update my knowledge, I'm not averse to learning something new.
Gunnerman
And if you want to counter, post a link to back up your claims and I'll happily read it an update my knowledge, I'm not averse to learning something new.
Gunnerman
Not the only source you use, but the one you quote because you want to believe it? Worried, much? Randy has to charge Interest under Revenue rules, or the club would be liable for a massive tax bill on the money he lends. Our Youth system is one of the most successful in the Country. We were the third fastest growing club financially in the World last year. I hope that helps your education.
heathfieldroad1874
Not the only source you use, but the one you quote because you want to believe it? Worried, much? Randy has to charge Interest under Revenue rules, or the club would be liable for a massive tax bill on the money he lends. Our Youth system is one of the most successful in the Country. We were the third fastest growing club financially in the World last year. I hope that helps your education.
heathfieldroad1874
No, the one I quote because I thought it of most interest of you. Not at all worried, just intrigued because I like that blog, as it is interesting and humourous, and wanted Villa fans opinion on the views provided there. You could perhaps be more gracious. Thanks for your comments.
Gunnerman
No, the one I quote because I thought it of most interest of you. Not at all worried, just intrigued because I like that blog, as it is interesting and humourous, and wanted Villa fans opinion on the views provided there. You could perhaps be more gracious. Thanks for your comments.
Gunnerman
I could be more gracious, you are right Gunnerman, but I'm not feeling too much generosity of spirit at the moment. My anger is directed more at the person writing that blog, rather than you. He purports to know what he's talking about, when he plainly doesn't have a clue. The thought that many Arsenal fans will see it as truth frustrates me more than I can say!!!!
heathfieldroad1874
I could be more gracious, you are right Gunnerman, but I'm not feeling too much generosity of spirit at the moment. My anger is directed more at the person writing that blog, rather than you. He purports to know what he's talking about, when he plainly doesn't have a clue. The thought that many Arsenal fans will see it as truth frustrates me more than I can say!!!!
heathfieldroad1874
Tr1dent - Yup! LOL! They can't arrest us all!!!! Ha ha ha!!!
ljkal
Tr1dent - Yup! LOL! They can't arrest us all!!!! Ha ha ha!!!
ljkal
So basically the Arsenal fan who wrote that Arsenal blog read an article that put Villa above Arsenal, didn't like it, so then made up a load of reasons as to why it couldn't be correct, priceless! and he looks like an old lady!
ant1ant1
So basically the Arsenal fan who wrote that Arsenal blog read an article that put Villa above Arsenal, didn't like it, so then made up a load of reasons as to why it couldn't be correct, priceless! and he looks like an old lady!
ant1ant1
Is Tom Evans a Gooner? Or a Bluenose? heathfiieldroad1874 - ignore the blogs. And go easy on Gunnerman - I think he came in peace! I was ahelluvalot more furious at one of the OTHER Villa Blogs (the clue is there in the name for you) where a load of so called Villa Fans were agreeing and saying "yeah, saw it coming...etc...etc". Sack O'Neil, back to square one and such crap. The Fear is quite accurate in his ascertions. Despite the global credit crunch, why would Randy and his boys invest all they have at a decent and non-suicidal rate (I really fear for Portsmouth!! Watford? Palace? Notts County???) and as davidsands1982 says - Be proud of being a Villa fan at present! I think the real fears are with Liverpool, Citeh, Chelsea and Man U if this new ruling comes in. Imagine it does, Liverpool drop out of the top 4 for a couple of seasons and their Yanks bail and don't find anybody daft enough to spend £1Billion on the club! It could happen! As far as The Arse go - I beleive they're paying of the bill for the Emirates at an incredible rate - true Gunnerman??? Imagine if they sustain their postion and in 5 years have no debt!!!??? Now that's some position to be in...!
ljkal
Is Tom Evans a Gooner? Or a Bluenose? heathfiieldroad1874 - ignore the blogs. And go easy on Gunnerman - I think he came in peace! I was ahelluvalot more furious at one of the OTHER Villa Blogs (the clue is there in the name for you) where a load of so called Villa Fans were agreeing and saying "yeah, saw it coming...etc...etc". Sack O'Neil, back to square one and such crap. The Fear is quite accurate in his ascertions. Despite the global credit crunch, why would Randy and his boys invest all they have at a decent and non-suicidal rate (I really fear for Portsmouth!! Watford? Palace? Notts County???) and as davidsands1982 says - Be proud of being a Villa fan at present! I think the real fears are with Liverpool, Citeh, Chelsea and Man U if this new ruling comes in. Imagine it does, Liverpool drop out of the top 4 for a couple of seasons and their Yanks bail and don't find anybody daft enough to spend £1Billion on the club! It could happen! As far as The Arse go - I beleive they're paying of the bill for the Emirates at an incredible rate - true Gunnerman??? Imagine if they sustain their postion and in 5 years have no debt!!!??? Now that's some position to be in...!
ljkal
(..that's paying OFF the bill at The ! i.e. eating away at the loan like we do our Barclaycards!)...
ljkal
(..that's paying OFF the bill at The ! i.e. eating away at the loan like we do our Barclaycards!)...
ljkal
you mean Damian ljkal, he does me head in!!! Forever the pessimist
av-jc-86
you mean Damian ljkal, he does me head in!!! Forever the pessimist
av-jc-86
Im sure we wont be spending anything like we have before,but the same will apply to everyone.i dont think it would be good p.r for MoN if he went as soon as he didnt have a fortune to spend.Roll on the 6 + 5 rule.
Pking
Im sure we wont be spending anything like we have before,but the same will apply to everyone.i dont think it would be good p.r for MoN if he went as soon as he didnt have a fortune to spend.Roll on the 6 + 5 rule.
Pking
ljkal - yup, we are ploughing through the mortgage at a rate of knots, sold a large portion of the highbury square development, and club level brings in more cash than entire gates at other grounds. We're technically rolling in it, which is down to AW's genius, which makes it all the more frustrating that he refuses to spend it!

I always come in peace chaps, I just like the discussion! Heath, soz bud, I can understand why you'd be annoyed. I guess what makes it worse is he is one of the more respected and widely read of gooner blogs. Shame, the rest of his stuff is normally bang on the mark. Thought it was worth sharing anyway. Good luck on your top 4 quest :-)
Gunnerman
ljkal - yup, we are ploughing through the mortgage at a rate of knots, sold a large portion of the highbury square development, and club level brings in more cash than entire gates at other grounds. We're technically rolling in it, which is down to AW's genius, which makes it all the more frustrating that he refuses to spend it!

I always come in peace chaps, I just like the discussion! Heath, soz bud, I can understand why you'd be annoyed. I guess what makes it worse is he is one of the more respected and widely read of gooner blogs. Shame, the rest of his stuff is normally bang on the mark. Thought it was worth sharing anyway. Good luck on your top 4 quest :-)
Gunnerman
I think gunnerman seems quite reasonable and poses some interesting questions. I am no financial whizz and rely on what I read in the press/blogs or hear on TV. The most recent report put Villa a worrying £72m in debt. That is not as worrying as Arsenals £300m, but enough to cause concern. I happen to think that despite an obvous case of myopia, Wenger has worked absolute miracles to keep Arsenal in the top 3 or 4 for the last few years. However there are many stories within stories that may well change the future of football. Arsenal have virtually no English players. With the possible rule change on number of home grown players, clubs with a wealth of young English talent could suddenly find that there assets increase dramatically in value. Arsenal are a club that could be forced to pay millions to address years of neglect in local football players whilst chasing the global dream. Apparently Arsenal youth system is 10 years ahead of Villas, but looking at Saturdays teams I am not sure that is the case. Arsenal started with 1 Englishman (Walcott). Every other player was purchased and didnt come through the youth set up. However gunnerman being more knowledgeable on all matters Arse could correct me on this. Villa started with 6 English men and 4 more on the bench although Agbonlahor was the only starter who has come through the ranks. In recent times O'neill has sold Gardner, Cahill, Ridgewell, Moore, Whittingham and Barry for a combined fee of £26m. I do not know Wengers recent sales of players who played for the youth set up at the arse, but other than Anthony Stokes who went to Sunderland for £2m, I find it difficult to see the reasoning behind the statement that Villa youth set up is 10 years behind Arsenals. In terms of trophies though Arsenal have won the Youth cup 3 times this century (2000,2001 and 2009) where we have only won it once this century (2002), although we were runners up in 2004. This season we are in the q/finals but Arsenal were knocked out by Ipswich I think. Most of our youth team play in the reserve team, same with Arsenal I believe. Currently we are second to Arsenal, 1 point behind but with 2 games in hand. So as his comments on the youth set up are so factually incorrect I can only assume that most of his comments can be taken with a rather large pinch of salt. He does though provide a reasonable, if flawed argument. If I was a guessing man I would say that gunnerman sells insurance, cars or home improvements for a living. These are all jobs where the initial sale looks inviting, but you only discover the truth when you read into the real facts and look at the small print.
voiceoftheholte
I think gunnerman seems quite reasonable and poses some interesting questions. I am no financial whizz and rely on what I read in the press/blogs or hear on TV. The most recent report put Villa a worrying £72m in debt. That is not as worrying as Arsenals £300m, but enough to cause concern. I happen to think that despite an obvous case of myopia, Wenger has worked absolute miracles to keep Arsenal in the top 3 or 4 for the last few years. However there are many stories within stories that may well change the future of football. Arsenal have virtually no English players. With the possible rule change on number of home grown players, clubs with a wealth of young English talent could suddenly find that there assets increase dramatically in value. Arsenal are a club that could be forced to pay millions to address years of neglect in local football players whilst chasing the global dream. Apparently Arsenal youth system is 10 years ahead of Villas, but looking at Saturdays teams I am not sure that is the case. Arsenal started with 1 Englishman (Walcott). Every other player was purchased and didnt come through the youth set up. However gunnerman being more knowledgeable on all matters Arse could correct me on this. Villa started with 6 English men and 4 more on the bench although Agbonlahor was the only starter who has come through the ranks. In recent times O'neill has sold Gardner, Cahill, Ridgewell, Moore, Whittingham and Barry for a combined fee of £26m. I do not know Wengers recent sales of players who played for the youth set up at the arse, but other than Anthony Stokes who went to Sunderland for £2m, I find it difficult to see the reasoning behind the statement that Villa youth set up is 10 years behind Arsenals. In terms of trophies though Arsenal have won the Youth cup 3 times this century (2000,2001 and 2009) where we have only won it once this century (2002), although we were runners up in 2004. This season we are in the q/finals but Arsenal were knocked out by Ipswich I think. Most of our youth team play in the reserve team, same with Arsenal I believe. Currently we are second to Arsenal, 1 point behind but with 2 games in hand. So as his comments on the youth set up are so factually incorrect I can only assume that most of his comments can be taken with a rather large pinch of salt. He does though provide a reasonable, if flawed argument. If I was a guessing man I would say that gunnerman sells insurance, cars or home improvements for a living. These are all jobs where the initial sale looks inviting, but you only discover the truth when you read into the real facts and look at the small print.
voiceoftheholte
Thanks for some good information and predictions, VotH. Good quality of debate emerging on this thread. Without huge investments of foreign money, English PL football cannot survive in its present form for much longer. Whatever happens, it looks like Villa have a better chance of being high up in the mix than clubs with these monstrous debts. The banking system collapsed and it's possible that the financial structure of footy will too.
144wittonlane
Thanks for some good information and predictions, VotH. Good quality of debate emerging on this thread. Without huge investments of foreign money, English PL football cannot survive in its present form for much longer. Whatever happens, it looks like Villa have a better chance of being high up in the mix than clubs with these monstrous debts. The banking system collapsed and it's possible that the financial structure of footy will too.
144wittonlane
Our total debt is underwritten by Lerner and borrowed from the Lerner Family Trust. I think the guy is a saint for allowing us to borrow like that, effectively from his retirement and kids inheritance!!! LEGEND!!! Most business man would have just given the balance sheet to the bank and borrowed at 8 - 9%. Our debt should not be considered as a debt, more like one of your mates lending you £20 on a drunken night out. Randy is probably even consigned to the fact that the only way he will get that money back is by one day selling. Imagine what the club is worth now compared to 5 years ago??? £200m - £250m ???
Stig
Our total debt is underwritten by Lerner and borrowed from the Lerner Family Trust. I think the guy is a saint for allowing us to borrow like that, effectively from his retirement and kids inheritance!!! LEGEND!!! Most business man would have just given the balance sheet to the bank and borrowed at 8 - 9%. Our debt should not be considered as a debt, more like one of your mates lending you £20 on a drunken night out. Randy is probably even consigned to the fact that the only way he will get that money back is by one day selling. Imagine what the club is worth now compared to 5 years ago??? £200m - £250m ???
Stig
I sent a message to the chap who writes the blog, and he's written back confirming he didn't really know what was going on at Villa. He was impressed with the investments made in future infrastructure. He had assumed all the money had gone on transfer fees and wages. He has promised to ensure future posts are more accurate.
heathfieldroad1874
I sent a message to the chap who writes the blog, and he's written back confirming he didn't really know what was going on at Villa. He was impressed with the investments made in future infrastructure. He had assumed all the money had gone on transfer fees and wages. He has promised to ensure future posts are more accurate.
heathfieldroad1874
More crap from the press , all because randy choses to do his work behind the scenes and not prostitute himself to them like Gold does I igonre them
Trekker
More crap from the press , all because randy choses to do his work behind the scenes and not prostitute himself to them like Gold does I igonre them
Trekker
@Voice - gotta put you straight on a couple of bits. The debt is a fixed asset and is more of a mortgage, it is not against the club per-se. Also, More English players currently ply their trade at the top level having been trained at Arsenal than any other team.

As well as this, our Academy and Reserve sides are overwhelmingly English, check the site if you don't believe me - it's a fallacy to assume that we have in some neglected English talent just because they have not been good enough to break in to the first team or are too young, we're better equipped than pretty much anyone if 6+5 is introduced

Is it better to simply buy the English talent in or attempt to train it yourself? Some examples of young English players from Arsenal current reserve set up are:

Jack Wilshere / Danny Boateng / Tom Cruis/ Gavin Hoyte / Kyle Bartley / Craig Eastmond / Kerrea Gilbert / Luke Ayling / Sam Byles / Jernade Meade / Jay Emmanual Thomas / Luke Freeman / Jay Simpson / Rhys Murphy

And thats just the reserves without even going in to the youth system!

Sorry if that seems a bit defensive, it's just Arsenal fans get the short end of the stick when it comes to media coverage of our team, rarely is our youth set up researched in any detail, and the fact fans of other teams think we are in some way detrimental to English talent gets on our tits, in fact, it's quite the opposite.
Gunnerman
@Voice - gotta put you straight on a couple of bits. The debt is a fixed asset and is more of a mortgage, it is not against the club per-se. Also, More English players currently ply their trade at the top level having been trained at Arsenal than any other team.

As well as this, our Academy and Reserve sides are overwhelmingly English, check the site if you don't believe me - it's a fallacy to assume that we have in some neglected English talent just because they have not been good enough to break in to the first team or are too young, we're better equipped than pretty much anyone if 6+5 is introduced

Is it better to simply buy the English talent in or attempt to train it yourself? Some examples of young English players from Arsenal current reserve set up are:

Jack Wilshere / Danny Boateng / Tom Cruis/ Gavin Hoyte / Kyle Bartley / Craig Eastmond / Kerrea Gilbert / Luke Ayling / Sam Byles / Jernade Meade / Jay Emmanual Thomas / Luke Freeman / Jay Simpson / Rhys Murphy

And thats just the reserves without even going in to the youth system!

Sorry if that seems a bit defensive, it's just Arsenal fans get the short end of the stick when it comes to media coverage of our team, rarely is our youth set up researched in any detail, and the fact fans of other teams think we are in some way detrimental to English talent gets on our tits, in fact, it's quite the opposite.
Gunnerman
And that comment about my living was a little below the belt. I do none of those things - and I could levy exactly the same guess at you for your assumptions about the Arsenal youth set up.

With regard to players coming through the youth set up - Gael Clichy, Niklas Bendtner, Abou Diaby, Alex Song, Denilson, Fabregas, were all taken on as scholars and trained in our youth system before breaking through to the first team.

I guess we've both learned something today! :)
Gunnerman
And that comment about my living was a little below the belt. I do none of those things - and I could levy exactly the same guess at you for your assumptions about the Arsenal youth set up.

With regard to players coming through the youth set up - Gael Clichy, Niklas Bendtner, Abou Diaby, Alex Song, Denilson, Fabregas, were all taken on as scholars and trained in our youth system before breaking through to the first team.

I guess we've both learned something today! :)
Gunnerman
Hi Gunnerman et al, really good discussion, thanks for coming Villa's world, financially I believe Villa and Arsenal fans can feel ok about there respective clubs. For all the ins and outs we've a fantastic Chairman and set-up and Arsenal are paying off an amazing stadium (nothing wrong with that) and as much as I can't stand Wenger (totally separate issue don't want to get into that at all) he has to be the best scout the league has ever seen, some of his purchases have been and are amazing!

My concern Gennerman would be although many good English players seems to be breed through the Arsenal Youth and Reserve teams, none seem to make it through to the first team and this must be a concern. It really does sadden me when I see match of the day and teams hardly playing any British, let alone English players, and I'm afraid Arsenal are the biggest culprits of this. How many times do they line up with not a single English player in there starting 11, to me this is not acceptable and the sooner the home based player ruling come in the better for our national game.

How do Arsenal fans honestly feel about only ever seeing foreign players in there XI (it has been this way for quite a while now to) - does this bother them or not? And when the home based player ruling comes in how do you think this will effect Arsenal's performance and other teams for that matter?
davidsands1982
Sorry, the bit about more english players having trained at arsenal at the top level might be BS. It's more players, not necessarily english. Sorry for invading your site for so long, thanks for having me!

Sold by Arsenal through the youth system.....David Bentley (english), Jermaine Pennant(english), Jeramie Aliadiere, Ashley Cole(english), Matthew Upson(english), Anthony Stokes(english), Rui Fonte, Justin Hoyte(english), Matthew Connolly(english), Fabrice Muamba(english), Aturo Lupoli, Seb Larsson, Garry Ryan(english), Quincy Owusu, Pat Cregg, Moritz Voltz, Jerome Thomas(english)

again, sorry I'll leave you in peace. Seriously, good luck with your top 4 quest, much prefer the Villa to City and Spurs and Liverpool :-D
Gunnerman
Hi Gunnerman et al, really good discussion, thanks for coming Villa's world, financially I believe Villa and Arsenal fans can feel ok about there respective clubs. For all the ins and outs we've a fantastic Chairman and set-up and Arsenal are paying off an amazing stadium (nothing wrong with that) and as much as I can't stand Wenger (totally separate issue don't want to get into that at all) he has to be the best scout the league has ever seen, some of his purchases have been and are amazing!

My concern Gennerman would be although many good English players seems to be breed through the Arsenal Youth and Reserve teams, none seem to make it through to the first team and this must be a concern. It really does sadden me when I see match of the day and teams hardly playing any British, let alone English players, and I'm afraid Arsenal are the biggest culprits of this. How many times do they line up with not a single English player in there starting 11, to me this is not acceptable and the sooner the home based player ruling come in the better for our national game.

How do Arsenal fans honestly feel about only ever seeing foreign players in there XI (it has been this way for quite a while now to) - does this bother them or not? And when the home based player ruling comes in how do you think this will effect Arsenal's performance and other teams for that matter?
davidsands1982
Sorry, the bit about more english players having trained at arsenal at the top level might be BS. It's more players, not necessarily english. Sorry for invading your site for so long, thanks for having me!

Sold by Arsenal through the youth system.....David Bentley (english), Jermaine Pennant(english), Jeramie Aliadiere, Ashley Cole(english), Matthew Upson(english), Anthony Stokes(english), Rui Fonte, Justin Hoyte(english), Matthew Connolly(english), Fabrice Muamba(english), Aturo Lupoli, Seb Larsson, Garry Ryan(english), Quincy Owusu, Pat Cregg, Moritz Voltz, Jerome Thomas(english)

again, sorry I'll leave you in peace. Seriously, good luck with your top 4 quest, much prefer the Villa to City and Spurs and Liverpool :-D
Gunnerman
I for one do not doubt Arsenal's youth set up, it is the fact none of the top players coming through to the starting XI are English and more often than not those that get close, get sold.

Villa are the same, O'Neil has bought his team, most of the promising youth players have been sold ~ I was very dissapointed to see Cahil go for example and really hope players like the Fonz get a good chance as Gabby has had.
davidsands1982
I for one do not doubt Arsenal's youth set up, it is the fact none of the top players coming through to the starting XI are English and more often than not those that get close, get sold.

Villa are the same, O'Neil has bought his team, most of the promising youth players have been sold ~ I was very dissapointed to see Cahil go for example and really hope players like the Fonz get a good chance as Gabby has had.
davidsands1982
Why do you think Wenger has ditched all of the home grown players Arsenal has produced? Is it a lack of quality / faith or just needed to raise the cash?
davidsands1982
Why do you think Wenger has ditched all of the home grown players Arsenal has produced? Is it a lack of quality / faith or just needed to raise the cash?
davidsands1982
Does anyone else on here really care about Le Arse ?
Stig
Does anyone else on here really care about Le Arse ?
Stig
@Davidsands1982 - thanks for your comments, I can't speak for all Arsenal fans but in my personal opinion, if they leave and are able to make a career elsewhere in the PL or at the top level, is that not helping the national team? Regarding the first XI, my opinion is that Arsenal is the ultimate meritocracy - where if you are good enough, you will play, nationality doesn't even factor in to it.

It depends on how much you care about international football, believe me, there are fans of all clubs that couldn't care less. I personally do care about it - regarding british/english players in the first XI, I think you might feel better about the Arsenal when Bartley, Wilshere, Eastmond, Gibbs, Simpson, Ramsey, Walcott (all have already played in the first team) end up as permanent fixtures in a couple years ;-)
Gunnerman
@Davidsands1982 - thanks for your comments, I can't speak for all Arsenal fans but in my personal opinion, if they leave and are able to make a career elsewhere in the PL or at the top level, is that not helping the national team? Regarding the first XI, my opinion is that Arsenal is the ultimate meritocracy - where if you are good enough, you will play, nationality doesn't even factor in to it.

It depends on how much you care about international football, believe me, there are fans of all clubs that couldn't care less. I personally do care about it - regarding british/english players in the first XI, I think you might feel better about the Arsenal when Bartley, Wilshere, Eastmond, Gibbs, Simpson, Ramsey, Walcott (all have already played in the first team) end up as permanent fixtures in a couple years ;-)
Gunnerman
Cheers Gunnerman, always good to know what other think, must admit Ramsey looks like a very exciting player as does Gibbs.
Just an interesting discussion Stig about finances and use of English players in the modern game.
davidsands1982
Cheers Gunnerman, always good to know what other think, must admit Ramsey looks like a very exciting player as does Gibbs.
Just an interesting discussion Stig about finances and use of English players in the modern game.
davidsands1982
No worries, thanks for having me. Stig, sorry for going off topic, was a good debate nonetheless.
Gunnerman
No worries, thanks for having me. Stig, sorry for going off topic, was a good debate nonetheless.
Gunnerman
Excellent debate and you make your comments well gunnerman. Very simply though it proves that the Arsenal youth set up is probably on par with Villas, and definitely not ahead of it. You mention many English players who you hope will be in Arsenal first team for years to come. However this is the same old story that Arsenal spin. The current crop you mention will probably go the same way as all the other players that you mention. The simple fact over Arsene's tenure is that he inherited a predominantly English team, and has developed this over years in to an anti English football instution that plays superb football. It would be very naive to think otherwise. The greatest example is Ashley Cole. Probably the best left back in the world and because he is English he was let down by the club. The club made a promise on wages, reneged on the deal and forced him out. However despite us having the moral higher ground in English talent I do wish we played a brand of football akin to that of the Arse. Good luck for the rest of the season.
voiceoftheholte
Excellent debate and you make your comments well gunnerman. Very simply though it proves that the Arsenal youth set up is probably on par with Villas, and definitely not ahead of it. You mention many English players who you hope will be in Arsenal first team for years to come. However this is the same old story that Arsenal spin. The current crop you mention will probably go the same way as all the other players that you mention. The simple fact over Arsene's tenure is that he inherited a predominantly English team, and has developed this over years in to an anti English football instution that plays superb football. It would be very naive to think otherwise. The greatest example is Ashley Cole. Probably the best left back in the world and because he is English he was let down by the club. The club made a promise on wages, reneged on the deal and forced him out. However despite us having the moral higher ground in English talent I do wish we played a brand of football akin to that of the Arse. Good luck for the rest of the season.
voiceoftheholte
I could be way out, but i get the impression that the biggest strength of Arsenal's youth setup is their scouting and purchasing of foreign kids, with nabbing Febregas from Barca being the obvious example. Do Villa's scouts ever leave England?!
MrZeus
I could be way out, but i get the impression that the biggest strength of Arsenal's youth setup is their scouting and purchasing of foreign kids, with nabbing Febregas from Barca being the obvious example. Do Villa's scouts ever leave England?!
MrZeus
@voice - problem is the previous players are known to have an attitude problem or just weren't up to the very high standard set at Arsenal. I do not believe for a second Arsenal is anti-english. It is a meritocracy, the English players we sold were simply not good enough or had an attitude problem.

In the case of Ashley Cole, as opposed to the greatest example you could say it's the only example. He left because he wanted more money and was tapped up by Chelsea illegally while still under contract. Had he not been, he may well still be our player

If Arsenal is as you assume, anti english/british, why is English youth given prominence at reserve and youth level, why was Gibbs a shoe in to become our first choice left back until injury, why is Walcott constantly given first XI places despite his critics, and why are Ramsey and Jack Wilshere considered by Wenger to be Arsenal's most talented young prospects?

I think looking purely at the first XI does the club an injustice and is slightly simplistic in its view. But time will tell on Arsenal, this is a Villa finance thread. Financial fair play is coming in 2013 clubs have to break even (not make a loss) or won't be allowed in Europe. and by all accounts with the world class long term planning and youth set up we'll both be just fine :)
Gunnerman
@voice - problem is the previous players are known to have an attitude problem or just weren't up to the very high standard set at Arsenal. I do not believe for a second Arsenal is anti-english. It is a meritocracy, the English players we sold were simply not good enough or had an attitude problem.

In the case of Ashley Cole, as opposed to the greatest example you could say it's the only example. He left because he wanted more money and was tapped up by Chelsea illegally while still under contract. Had he not been, he may well still be our player

If Arsenal is as you assume, anti english/british, why is English youth given prominence at reserve and youth level, why was Gibbs a shoe in to become our first choice left back until injury, why is Walcott constantly given first XI places despite his critics, and why are Ramsey and Jack Wilshere considered by Wenger to be Arsenal's most talented young prospects?

I think looking purely at the first XI does the club an injustice and is slightly simplistic in its view. But time will tell on Arsenal, this is a Villa finance thread. Financial fair play is coming in 2013 clubs have to break even (not make a loss) or won't be allowed in Europe. and by all accounts with the world class long term planning and youth set up we'll both be just fine :)
Gunnerman
I do like the way that you put your points over gunnerman, even though I do not share your view. But that is the nature of football, but it is welcoming to have a good debate without the need for the bile some people come on here with. As for your last post, I think Ramsey is Welsh. I would also say that Upson was better than Cygan, Senderos and Silvestre put together. And you mention the players you have dismiised for attitude problems, but do not mention the biggest sulking cry baby Gallas. Who despite being the biggest tit in football was club captain and is captain when Fabregas doesn't play. But he is French so that tells everybody everything they need to know about Wenger. Gibbs may well come through, but wouldn't need to if you had kept the worlds best left back. I do not dispute the Arsenal policy, it has kept the club in the top echelons of the game whilst money has gone into the long term infrastructure. I hope that you win a trophy this season be it it Premier or Champions League. If we win the Carling and FA Cups we will all be happy.
voiceoftheholte
I do like the way that you put your points over gunnerman, even though I do not share your view. But that is the nature of football, but it is welcoming to have a good debate without the need for the bile some people come on here with. As for your last post, I think Ramsey is Welsh. I would also say that Upson was better than Cygan, Senderos and Silvestre put together. And you mention the players you have dismiised for attitude problems, but do not mention the biggest sulking cry baby Gallas. Who despite being the biggest tit in football was club captain and is captain when Fabregas doesn't play. But he is French so that tells everybody everything they need to know about Wenger. Gibbs may well come through, but wouldn't need to if you had kept the worlds best left back. I do not dispute the Arsenal policy, it has kept the club in the top echelons of the game whilst money has gone into the long term infrastructure. I hope that you win a trophy this season be it it Premier or Champions League. If we win the Carling and FA Cups we will all be happy.
voiceoftheholte
Hate to do this to you Voice, but Almunia is captain when Fab doesn't play, Gallas has not been captain once since he was stripped of it. And the attitude problems I refer to are more along the lines of drinking/party boys and believing they were too good to sit on the bench or to continue to develop at a natural pace. Which is a shame.

However, I 100% agree with you on Upson though, I think we let him go far too early, but even with that said he wanted first team football when we had an incredible defense at the time and didn't want to wait, which is in some ways understandable. We may not agree, but I'm glad we can debate like men. And AMEN to us both winning trophys!
Gunnerman
Hate to do this to you Voice, but Almunia is captain when Fab doesn't play, Gallas has not been captain once since he was stripped of it. And the attitude problems I refer to are more along the lines of drinking/party boys and believing they were too good to sit on the bench or to continue to develop at a natural pace. Which is a shame.

However, I 100% agree with you on Upson though, I think we let him go far too early, but even with that said he wanted first team football when we had an incredible defense at the time and didn't want to wait, which is in some ways understandable. We may not agree, but I'm glad we can debate like men. And AMEN to us both winning trophys!
Gunnerman
I stand corrected on Gallas. As for Almunia, if you gave him the armband he would probably drop it. The Venus de Milo would do better between the sticks.
voiceoftheholte
I stand corrected on Gallas. As for Almunia, if you gave him the armband he would probably drop it. The Venus de Milo would do better between the sticks.
voiceoftheholte
 

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